If one visits certain cultures where the upbringing of all the children is very different, it can look like a whole nation of "Narcissists". It's not the children's "fault", they have zero knowledge of anything outside of their culture, or their family. If they're LUCKY, and their brain has enough empathy function and cognitive function, when they get old enough they might find out what it's like in other places, that there's other ways "to be", and will be able to grasp the concepts and escape the shackles of their upbringing.
Funny this: depending on which culture is reading this paragraph depends on what other cultures they see as having Narcissism; that's what "Bias" is, and no human is immune to it.
In light of this, I feel strongly that it's time to bring something important to the forefront of the "Narc Abuse/Support" community. We talk about recovery for ourselves all the time, and support one another, and that's wonderful, it's the core of what makes these communities what they are, they're unprecedented, never before seen in the world, actual support groups for targets of Narcissism.
Pretty much everyone who has been a target of abuse, betrayal, neglect, scapegoating, gaslighting, conning, and ostracism feel ANGRY about what's happened to them, and rightfully so. Absolutely, rightfully so. Even debating whether that anger is "okay" or not is just pointless and silly, any person with any kind of self-respect or a functioning brain would (and probably should) feel some anger at some point, no matter how understanding or compassionate they are.
HOWEVER. The hate and the general bashing of people with Narcissism in general, as if they are some other species, as if this is a medieval witchhunt, is not helping anyone.
People seem to FORGET SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT, and maybe it's just people who don't have KIDS, I don't know... but the fact is, not only were ALL of these "Narcs" someone's child, but... KEEP READING... MANY Narc. Abuse targets who are ON THESE SUPPORT PAGES ended up with ONE OF THEIR CHILDREN having Narcissism.
When we bash ALL NARCS, we are including ALL NARCS, which means we are bashing some of the children of some of the people who we're SUPPOSED TO BE SUPPORTING.
Maybe if you don't have kids, you can't imagine how that might be mind-bending and emotionally twisting. (That's not an accusation, it's just a matter of standing in unfamiliar shoes).
We are all aware of how a Narcissist can manipulate a person into marrying them and having children with them, or how they can talk a person into trusting them with their children, and then they turn out to be the worst influence you could imagine on a child. SOME OF THESE CHILDREN END UP WITH BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER TRAITS OR NARCISSISM. Not just because they "inherited the gene" for it, but because of what they were exposed to, and what they witnessed.
So, HOW EXACTLY does a loving, caring parent who has been to HELL and back get support on forums when he or she knows one of her/his own children suffers from NPD or BPD, because of the exposure to abuse? Everyone's calling their kid "evil"... everyone's throwing HATE at their child, even if it's indirectly, instead of looking for SOLUTIONS and ways to deal with it, understand it, and help.
We don't need to hold back our ANGER about what happened to us, but creating hate is not helping anyone, LEAST OF ALL those who are looking DESPERATELY for a way to help their KIDS. Everyone should know by now how hard it can be to get help, just imagine how hard it is to get help for your child (who you love just like your other children if you're a healthy, non-narc. parent), if they have BPD or NPD!?
And no, this is not a "personal rant", for those who are going to try to "retaliate" by trying to AD HOMINEM me... give it up, that crap is getting old and it doesn't work anymore. This is a real and poignant subject. I personally get email all the time from very upset parents who are trying to recover from their own abuse, trying to recover from the trauma of seeing the toll it's take on their children, and then also trying to HELP their children (including both young and adult children) recover or at least deal with their trauma, some of whom are showing signs of Narcissism.
I've actually HEARD some very Narc. "counselors" say terrible things like "That's just the way they're gonna be, you just have to quit whining about it and cut the cord." ALSO "The reason the kid is that way is because of the mother's issues, if she didn't make such a big deal out of the father's 'abuse', then the kid wouldn't have any problems at all." ALSO "The abusive behavior of the mother and the mother's boyfriend wasn't THAT bad, that kid's just a bad seed."
It gets worse than that. Kids CAN and DO develop Narcissism from the family situation they grew up in, or were exposed to, and there are people in these support communities who are dealing with ALL KINDS of effects on their children, younger or older. There are people on these forums who have been trying to deal with the effects on their children for YEARS and have made very little progress because of the lack of real help out there in many places.
So be angry as hell about what happened, be livid, stand up and shout it to the world. But please let us all REMEMBER that there are people on these forums who are PARENTS (or aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other relatives or loved ones) of people who have BPD and NPD. AND, not only that, but there are people who visit these forums who have severe PTSD who have also been diagnosed with BPD. (In fact, probably about 95% of the visitors on abuse support forums would be diagnosed with BPD if they went to the "right" psychiatrist, it's a POPULAR CURRENT TREND in the psychiatric field to throw that diagnosis on a person, and especially if that person is female. Here's to hoping that that trend is nearing it's death.)
There is ALSO the occasional person who shows up who has many Narc. traits, but just enough awareness to realize it and to seek knowledge and learning; pretty sure if they see the support community as a "hate" community it's going to deter them from learning, trying to develop empathy in the group, or joining in discussion. I've turned off groups who were obviously only interested in bashing myself, because there was no recovery for anyone, no point. Bashing Narcs, BPD's, abuse victims who aren't 'tough' enough, who aren't 'cool' enough', who don't 'fit in'.... etc.
*****
There are also people within these communities who have a lot more Narc. traits than they seem to realize (which is usually the case with Narcissism), and if the community puts Narcs in the group of "People We HATE" and victims in a group of "People who are innocent", OF COURSE a person with Narcissism is going to FIT RIGHT IN, and be right there making themselves into one of the "People who are innocent", or "People who are innocent and therefore should be followed", and "I'm one of you guys, let me in!"
*****
There are also people who seek caring and open minded support who have PTSD, who are triggered by hate-speech, even about abusers, just hate-speech period. We can't control who gets triggered, or how, but we can control the tone of what we say.
VENTING is one thing, and is essential, and is healthy. But insisting that anyone who displays immaturity or Narcissism is innately evil, that's not the same thing.
MAYBE SOME OF THEM ARE... my personal belief about that, though, which you may or may not agree with, obviously, is that most of them are not AWARE ENOUGH to implement their FREE WILL to decide to be "Evil", like the story of Satan. Most of them who seem "evil" (most, not all) might be influenced, attacked, and cajoled by evil forces. Holes in the aura, wounds where "bugs" can get in, holes in the heart that caused a person to seek solace but found it in the wrong place, or the lure of power and grandiosity (the usual temptation story). That doesn't mean we should let our guard down or feel sorry for them, it just means that their human soul is probably still in there. God's Child. Those who have chosen to "turn", well, that's their problem, unfortunately for them. All we need to do about them is gain awareness and protect ourselves from them. "Evil" is a word that's only valid if a person believes that there is such a thing, and that implies believing that there is also the opposite of "evil", which is much more powerful.
So let's keep more of the powerful stuff around. The more of it we keep and build and nurture, the more of it we have.
~~~ And just to be clear, this was NOT directed at anyone specific, not at all. There are a few people who have not EVER called Narc's "evil", or "bashed" them in general; I'm not one of them, I've totally done that, especially when I was first recovering and dealing with the immediate aftermath, and especially the LAST time. When I was able to 'lift my head up' again, I realized that it wasn't helping me or anyone else, and it was helping to pigeon hole and stigmatize human beings, some of whom I care about and WITNESSED getting "turned into" a person with Narcissism; as much as I tried to stop it, or add positive influence, there was not a damn thing I could do. (Maybe if I was very, very rich, I could have done something more, I do dream of it. But I just kept getting slapped away and attacked by the usual suspects in every case, and I've seen the same thing happen to others who were trying to help a child who was being influenced terribly by the adults in their world, including to their OWN child.)
Plus... what about the Narc. traits that my friends have, my loved ones, or that I HAVE? Should I hate myself for them, does that help? Or should I just STOP that, and learn to look at myself in the mirror without resentment, judgment, and shame that has been projected onto me for so long? Everyone has Narc. traits, we're human, but that doesn't make us "evil", nor does it make it "OKAY" to have Narc. traits. It just means we have work to do.
No one knows better than an abuse survivor how being stigmatized makes everything much worse, much harder, much LESS CLEAR.
We ALL AGREE, I think, that SOME people who have Narcissism might actually be "evil". But even if they ARE, it's still FROM something, there is an ORIGIN, a CAUSE. It would HELP ALL OF US tremendously to FIND OUT what that cause is, for real, in an objective, scientific manner. SO that we can possibly "cure" it, repair it, or prevent it, both in others and in ourselves, and in our loved ones.
We already know a lot of the origins and causes, but we don't know them all, and we don't know how to CURE it, yet. I am confident, however, that there IS a way to cure it; we'll find it eventually. If one visits certain cultures where the upbringing of all the children is very different, it looks like a whole nation of Narcs . It's not the children's "fault", they have zero knowledge of anything outside of their culture, or their family. If they're LUCKY, and their brain has enough empathy function and cognitive function, when they get old enough they might find out what it's like in other places, that there's other ways "to be", and will be able to grasp the concepts and escape the shackles of their upbringing.
In light of this, I think it's time to bring something important to the forefront of the "Narc Abuse/Support" community. We talk about recovery for ourselves all the time, and support one another, and that's wonderful, it's the core of what makes these communities what they are, they're unprecedented, never before seen in the world actual support groups for targets of Narcissism.
Pretty much everyone who has been a target of abuse, betrayal, neglect, scapegoating, gaslighting, conning, and ostracism feel ANGRY about what's happened to them, and rightfully so. Absolutely, rightfully so. Even debating whether that anger is "okay" or not is just pointless and silly, any person with any kind of self-respect or a functioning brain would (and probably should) feel some anger at some point, no matter how understanding or compassionate they are.
HOWEVER. The hate and the general bashing of "Narcs" in general, as if they are some other species, as if this is a medieval witchhunt, is not helping anyone.
People seem to FORGET SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT, and maybe it's just people who don't have KIDS, I don't know... but the fact is, not only were ALL of these "Narcs" someone's child, but... KEEP READING... MANY Narc. Abuse targets who are ON THESE SUPPORT PAGES ended up with ONE OF THEIR CHILDREN having Narcissism.
When we bash ALL NARCS, we are including ALL NARCS, which means we are bashing some of the children of some of the people who we're SUPPOSED TO BE SUPPORTING.
Maybe if you don't have kids, you can't imagine how that might be mind-bending and emotionally twisting.
We are all aware of how a Narcissist can manipulate a person into marrying them and having children with them, or how they can talk a person into trusting them with their children, and then they turn out to be the worst influence you could imagine on a child. SOME OF THESE CHILDREN END UP WITH BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER TRAITS OR NARCISSISM. Not just because they "inherited the gene" for it, but because of what they were exposed to, and what they witnessed.
So, HOW EXACTLY does a loving, caring parent who has been to HELL and back get support on forums when he or she knows one of her/his own children suffers from NPD or BPD, because of the exposure to abuse? Everyone's calling their kid "evil"... everyone's throwing HATE at their child, even if it's indirectly, instead of looking for SOLUTIONS and ways to deal with it and help.
We don't need to hold back our ANGER about what happened to us, but creating hate is not helping anyone, LEAST OF ALL those who are looking DESPERATELY for a way to help their KIDS. Everyone should know by now how hard it can be to get help, just imagine how hard it is to get help for your child (who you love just like your other children if you're a healthy, non-narc. parent), if they have BPD or NPD!?
And no, this is not a "personal rant", for those who are going to try to "retaliate" by trying to AD HOMINEM me... give it up, that crap is getting old and it doesn't work anymore. This is a real and poignant subject. I personally get email all the time from very upset parents who are trying to recover from their own abuse, trying to recover from the trauma of seeing the toll it's take on their children, and then also trying to HELP their children (including both young and adult children) recover or at least deal with their trauma, who are showing signs of Narcissism.
I've actually HEARD some very Narc. "counselors" say terrible things like "That's just the way they're gonna be, you just have to quit whining about it and cut the cord." ALSO "The reason the kid is that way is because of the mother's issues, if she didn't make such a big deal out of the father's 'abuse', then the kid wouldn't have any problems at all." ALSO "The abusive behavior of the mother and the mother's boyfriend wasn't THAT bad, that kid's just a bad seed."
It gets worse than that. Kids CAN and DO develop Narcissism from the family situation they grew up in, or were exposed to, and there are people in these support communities who are dealing with ALL KINDS of effects on their children, younger or older. There are people on these forums who have been trying to deal with the effects on their children for YEARS and have made very little progress because of the lack of real help out there in many places.
So be angry as hell about what happened, be livid, stand up and shout it to the world. But REMEMBER that there are people on these forums who are PARENTS (or aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other relatives or loved ones) of people who have BPD and NPD. AND, not only that, but there are people who visit these forums who have severe PTSD who have also been diagnosed with BPD. (In fact, probably about 95% of the visitors on abuse support forums would be diagnosed with BPD if they went to the "right" psychiatrist, it's a POPULAR CURRENT TREND in the psychiatric field to throw that diagnosis on a person, and especially if that person is female. Here's to hoping that that trend is nearing it's death.)
There is ALSO the occasional person who shows up who has many Narc. traits, but just enough awareness to realize it and to seek knowledge and learning; pretty sure if they see the support community as a "hate" community it's going to deter them from learning, trying to develop empathy in the group, or joining in discussion. I've turned off groups who were obviously only interested in bashing myself, because there was no recovery for anyone, no point. Bashing Narcs, BPD's, abuse victims who aren't 'tough' enough, who aren't 'cool' enough', who don't 'fit in'.... etc.
*****
There are people within these communities who have a lot more Narc. traits than they seem to realize (which is usually the case with Narcissism), and if the community puts Narcs in the group of "People We HATE" and victims in a group of "People who are innocent", OF COURSE a person with Narcissism is going to FIT RIGHT IN, and be right there making themselves into one of the "People who are innocent", or "People who are innocent and therefore should be followed", and "I'm one of you guys, let me in!"
*****
There are also people who seek caring and open minded support who have PTSD, who are triggered by hate-speech, even about abusers, just hate-speech period. We can't control who gets triggered, or how, but we can control the tone of what we say.
VENTING is one thing, and is essential, and is healthy. But insisting that anyone who displays immaturity or Narcissism is innately evil, that's not the same thing.
MAYBE SOME OF THEM ARE... my personal belief about that, though, which you may or may not agree with, obviously, is that most of them are not AWARE ENOUGH to implement their FREE WILL to decide to be "Evil", like the story of Satan. Most of them who seem "evil" (most, not all) might be influenced, attacked, and cajoled by evil forces. Holes in the aura, wounds where "bugs" can get in, holes in the heart that caused a person to seek solace but found it in the wrong place, or the lure of power and grandiosity (the usual temptation story). "Evil" is a word that's only valid if a person believes that there is such a thing, and that implies believing that there is also the opposite of "evil", which is much more powerful.
So let's keep more of the powerful stuff around. The more of it we keep and build and nurture, the more of it we have.
~~~ And just to be clear, this was NOT directed at anyone, not at all. There are a few people who have not EVER called Narc's "evil", or "bashed" them in general; I'm not one of them, I've totally done that, especially when I was first recovering and dealing with the immediate aftermath. When I was able to 'lift my head up' again, I realized that it wasn't helping me or anyone else, and it was helping to pigeon hole and stigmatize human beings, some of whom I care about and WITNESSED getting "turned into" a person with Narcissism; as much as I tried to stop it, or add positive influence, there was not a damn thing I could do. (Maybe if I was very, very rich, I could have done something more, I do dream of it. But I just kept getting slapped away and attacked by the usual suspects in every case, and I've seen the same thing happen to others who were trying to help a child who was being influenced terribly by the adults in their world, including to their OWN child.)
No one knows better than an abuse survivor how being stigmatized makes everything much worse, much harder, much LESS CLEAR.
We ALL AGREE, I think, that SOME people who have Narcissism might actually be "evil". But even if they ARE, it's still FROM something, there is an ORIGIN, a CAUSE. It would HELP ALL OF US tremendously to FIND OUT what that cause is, for real, in an objective, scientific manner. SO that we can possibly "cure" it, repair it, or prevent it, both in others and in ourselves, and in our loved ones.
We already know a lot of the origins and causes, but we don't know them all, and we don't know how to CURE it, yet. I am confident, however, that there IS a way to cure it; we'll find it eventually. And on that note... to everyone who visits, shares on, and supports these pages and sites, as well as the rest of the Trauma and Abuse Survivor Support Community, again I am tremendously grateful, as a survivor myself, for all that you do, and it's quite a lot. It's huge, unprecedented. I am honored to be a part of the community, every day.
And I am very honored and grateful to be a part of a community who does not shun, ostracize, belittle, or attack those whom they don't agree with, or who are "different", who just share their OWN point of view when it's not the same as someone else's, and compare notes, and learn from one another without fighting and attacking others personally over "who's right". That's getting harder and harder to find.
